Wild About Yeast - Wine & Fermentation

What do bread, beer, and wine have in common? They're all brought to life through the incredible process of fermentation, thanks to the mighty yeast! In this episode, we dive headfirst into the fascinating, and admittedly complex, world of wine fermentation. You might wonder how we can fill an entire podcast with the subject of yeast, but trust us—it's easier than you think, especially when Llinos gets a bottle open!

Join us as we muddle our way through the intricacies of how yeast transforms grape juice into the vibrant wines we love. We navigate topics that might be a bit over our heads, but with plenty of curiosity and a splash of humour, we uncover the vital role fermentation plays in shaping the flavours and characteristics of wine. Whether you're a wine enthusiast or just starting to explore the world of winemaking, this episode promises to be an enlightening and accessible journey into one of the most essential processes in winemaking. Tune in and ferment your understanding!

Dropyn – Gwin Dylanwad Wine Chat is recorded in our little wine shop in Dolgellau, North Wales. Join Dylan, Llinos and Osian as we chat about wines, winemakers and the stories behind the bottles.

🍷 Visit us at https://dylanwad.co.uk/ 

💬 We’d love your feedback and reviews to help us grow.  Diolch!

Transcript

Osian 0:07

Kroys up, welcome to another episode of Droppin. This is episode eleven with your hosts Oshan Delan Antinos.

Llinos 0:16

Hello Pam.

Osian 0:17

Welcome. And today's subject is uh very exciting, uh edge of your seat sort of topic. We're talking about yeast.

Llinos 0:27

Delan didn't want to do this. It was gonna end up. This is too technical. There's been one download.

Dylan 0:36

But you can't make wine without yeast.

Llinos 0:41

We don't know that much about it ourselves, do we? We're learning a lot about it ourselves, and that that's one of the great things about these podcasts is that in Dusky, we're learning. But um I think we have to say before we go on to the yeast, don't we, about how exciting it's been in Dol Gefi this last few weeks because the new Hollywood I know Anthony Hopkins in town. Everybody had a photograph taken with Anthony Hopkins apart from me. Didn't even see him.

Dylan 1:09

Catherine Zeta Jones walked past me, and I would never have known recognise her. Wow.

Llinos 1:15

No, yeah.

Dylan 1:16

Is she in her costume? Yeah, she was um yeah.

Osian 1:19

Would you recognise her if she wasn't? No. Come on, be honest.

Llinos 1:23

I've heard of her, but I wouldn't know what she looks like, to be honest. I knew there in the past, but must have done. We're not exactly sort of uh I've seen her in is it Zorro? Zorro, Mask of Zorro.

Osian 1:36

Yeah. And when you then bandeas. Oh yeah.

Llinos 1:41

It was really, really exciting. All the shops were transformed. Um it's quite interesting that one shop, shop Hughes, didn't have to be transformed much, which is wonderful, isn't it?

Dylan 1:50

They were sort of taking the town back to the 20s.

Llinos 1:52

1940s, I think it is. 2030s, 40s. Delan Thomas's uh visit to grandads, I think they're doing making a film of. He had geese in the back streets.

Dylan 2:02

Yeah, I mean it's the the full full McCoy, wasn't it?

Llinos 2:05

Absolutely, yeah. I'm looking forward to seeing it. Lovely. And of course, um Delan has been away last Monday judging for the wine merchant magazine.

Dylan 2:17

Yeah, as you do. You get yourself down to London.

Llinos 2:20

How many wines did you have to taste?

Dylan 2:22

Uh 60 or 70, I would say.

Llinos 2:24

You actually had to taste 60 or 70 wines. That's once I was what about you, Wash? Once I've tasted sort of 10, that's that's me done.

Osian 2:35

Yeah. I don't think I can I struggle more with red wines because maybe the tannins, and then after a while everything's tastes the same. Yeah.

Llinos 2:43

And especially, you know, if they're really good quality wines, what you get is is this length in your mouth. And then do you wait for a while? Or do they give you some biscuits or something to chew on?

Dylan 2:55

There was water and biscuits to try and keep yourself going. But you did it in flights. I mean, it was it was absolutely fascinating. It was a great experience for me as well. I've not done a lot of judging like that. I've done the Welsh wine awards, but um yeah, they kept the wines came in flights and you had to sort of rank them. Um some wines were 80 quid, some were 12 quid. Um, and just you've got to make a judgment which ones you had to take into account a bit of value. I mean, if the 80 quid one wasn't good, then did you know the price when you were tasting it? Yeah, we did, which maybe in hindsight I think that was interesting. It might have been better not to. So the morning was sort of a bit of a sprint, and then the afternoon um less wines, and they wanted some notes and ranking and scores, uh, and they put together at the end of it, they will be now putting together the Wine Merchant magazine top 100 wines for uh for this year. That'd be interesting. Um yeah, great. I mean, I always always look at the results, I always look at the wines. Um, you know, it's all about the independent wine merchants, so it's very relevant for us. Um we didn't enter any wines, but I think we will do next year, maybe. Yeah, I think so.

Llinos 4:09

I think now you've been there, you know, it's all about a learning process, isn't it? You know, when I used to teach, I used to mark for the WJEC purely in order to learn what they wanted. You know, it was the best training I could have, wasn't it? Yeah, you know.

Dylan 4:24

Yeah, and there were there were great tasters around us, you know.

Llinos 4:27

Yeah, you got to meet some interesting people as well.

Dylan 4:30

Uh one of my my wine heroes, in a way, uh David Williams. He writes for the Observer Observer and number of always enjoyed his writing. He writes well, yeah, you know uh how how he does it to keep coming up with interesting topics uh every single week. We might well be looking at what he does for some of our future podcasts. But it was great to meet him. Such a nice guy, and um maybe he is his um his email is Daibach, I think.

Llinos 5:02

Davy Bach, is it?

Dylan 5:03

Daibach. So uh the you know, proper Welsh connection despite the fact that he lives in uh Suffolk. Would you have a judge Osh?

Llinos 5:12

Would you be interested? I don't I don't think I could, yeah.

Osian 5:16

But no, I I would struggle.

Llinos 5:17

We'll give you we'll give you some practice. Can we can we both practice? Is that okay?

Dylan 5:21

Yeah, yeah, I'll get the 710s.

Llinos 5:25

Yeah. And then you flew on to Germany, didn't you?

Dylan 5:28

I did, I didn't have a little bit nervous. I had a bit of time in between finishing the judging and then I had to drive off to Stansted.

Llinos 5:35

I think you should confess that actually. I'll be able to cut that off.

Dylan 5:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got a little um I've got a little breathlonizer that after tastings I have tasted and been read after tastings, but I was okay. So I got myself off to Stansted and flew into Frankfurt Hahn, which I can highly recommend as a as an airport because it's small and in the middle of nowhere. So it's all a bit easy.

Llinos 6:00

This is all to do with I mean we'll we'll talk about this another time, won't we? And we might even be able to go out there, but it's all to do with a new producer that we we were visiting.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Yeah.

Llinos 6:10

But is one of their wines do they use natural yeast on one of their natural yeast on the thing?

Dylan 6:16

I'll tell you what, so that's a bit of a I shouldn't say it was almost the same sort of marathon as uh as the day before. They they produce a lot of couvays, a lot of different wines, absolutely fascinating. Uh uh more so on the on the great varieties. They've gone big time on peewee varietals, these uh new crosses that need less in. That's another um so uh yeah, that's another that's another podcast.

Llinos 6:41

That is, that's a good one to do.

Dylan 6:42

With a bit of luck, I've I've marked my card and give us a month, we should have some exciting new different wines from Germany. So and and see how it goes.

Llinos 6:53

Pee-wee wines, everybody. We're not gonna tell you about it now. It's gonna be coming up. Yeah, yeah.

Dylan 7:00

Oh, a little uh teaser there for all those people fascinated by Pee-Wee varietals.

Llinos 7:06

Yeah, so um let's get on, shall we? What do we say about yeast?

Osian 7:12

Yes, um I think when you brought yeast up, I was like, ooh to have an entire episode just on yeast. I know. But actually, when you get into it, there's actually too much to talk about.

Llinos 7:24

That's the trouble. And I I feel as though, you know, so much so much has been I mean, I've I've got into making sourdough and really getting into yeast and everything, and and that's that's the that's really because I didn't have time when everybody else was making sourdough. We were busy with the business, weren't we?

SPEAKER_00 7:40

In lockdown.

Llinos 7:41

In lockdown, yeah, everybody was busy making sourdough. So my time has come now, and all of a sudden you think, oh, this is really interesting stuff, isn't it? You know, and um the what the one question was we want to what do a bread, beer, and wine have in common? Well, they're all commonly made by the fermentation process with yeast, so that's that's our starting point, isn't it, for this? Um and do we start by saying, you know, it's a vast topic and it's everywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeast are everywhere. Yeast is everywhere. I know that now because I've I've got yeast from my kitchen in my bread. I've been baking today again. I I can't stop. Um but also, you know, we in the wine world, one way to simplify this is we have commercial yeast, yeah. Uh the inoculated type. Yeah. Um, which sounds a bit uh sounds as medical, yeah. Um and then you have wild yeast or indigenous yeast. People have different names for it, don't they?

Dylan 8:52

It's a bit of a badge of honour these days, isn't it? I mean, along with the lines of natural wine, that it's natural yeast. I mean, all yeasts are natural, but it's whether you identify specific yeast that you want to use and then they're commercially produced because you know they give you the the result you want. Yeah.

Llinos 9:13

Yeah, so we're gonna start. Should we start with commercial yeast then? What do you reckon, oh? Start start off with commercial yeast.

Osian 9:19

Because you've got yeah, you've got these two sort of split, haven't you? Uh yeah, especially these days with the natural wine movement and stuff. But there is a big push on wild yeast. It's quite uh there's a lot to to know and there's a lot of risks. But so commercial, cultured yeast is yeast that is just you know from a packet, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All they do is to activate the fermentation, they will just open it up and put it in, and it will start the fermentation. And but this is a sort of new thing that's happened in the 20th century because back in the you know, back in the day they wouldn't have cultured yeast. No, they wouldn't so there's already yeast on the skins of the grapes anyway, but we'll get into that anyway. But because you've got this cultured yeast, you can just start a fermentation. But what's even more uh mind-boggling is the the strands of yeast you can get for specific wines. Yeah, so I think that's just yeah, yeah.

Dylan 10:21

It's difficult for people to understand perhaps that you know the effect the yeast has. You know, you think, well, we just need a yeast that will ferment, it'll turn those sugars into alcohol, CO2 is given off, and Bob's your uncle or whatever. Yeah, but specific yeast have specific aromas, work in different ways. I I always think the best example you can give in a way, because because New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc is so popular and is its own almost unique style, the vast majority of it, that is the greatest example of uh you know a cool fermentation with a yeast that works at a cool fermentation, a yeast that gives you the aromas you want, and there's your Sauvignon Blanc New Zealand because of specific yeast for most of them. Yeah.

Llinos 11:12

Essentially what yeast does is produce the alcohol, isn't it? Yeah. So you've got you've got the cold. I mean, the I remember seeing in one place when we visited years ago, you know, great big sacks of it. Like I have my little packets of making my bread in the bread machine. So it's great big sacks of this yeast. Um so that is what we now I I don't think I can pronounce this, but I'll have a goop. Sacchomyces servis, I think. Okay, now sacramyces was the myces bit because I'm quite into collecting mushrooms and I mean forest mushrooms, you know. Nothing dodgy, everybody.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Yeah, yeah.

Llinos 11:56

Not sure about that, but anyway. Um yeah, so sacchromyces is sweet, it means sweet fungus. Okay, so this this sweet fungus is what uh is producing the alcohol in wine. It's a single cell um little body, and so the it's eating up the sugars and converting that into alcohol. That's the simple way of looking at it, isn't it? So um basically what they want and also has the effects, different yeasts have different effects, as Dull was explaining there. You know, you can have different aromas from it, um some not desirable. So they they fight against the ones that they don't want a little bit, don't they? I remember one guy visiting us years ago and goes, Oh, oh, you can smell brett on this Rioja.

Dylan 12:50

I don't like different things like that.

Llinos 12:52

But Brettomyces is um a yeast that's not another strand, yeah. That some people see as a fault, other people see as oh actually that gives it quite an interesting little more complexity. More complexity, but yeah, you know. So you've got you've got more than 700 strains of this particular genus, um which you just think that's just the one one genus. Yeah. So this is and the wild one is growing everywhere as well. So you've got different genus of wild ones growing everywhere as well, and they're fighting against trying to get trying to keep the ones they don't want at bay. The winemaker now. The winemaker, yeah. And having the ones that they want to have the effect that they want.

Dylan 13:44

Yeah.

Llinos 13:45

So it's it's a lot of things.

Dylan 13:46

I mean, it's easy with your cultured yeast to do that. More complicated is when you get on to wanting your sort of more natural fermentation, how you know, how are you gonna make sure you've got a good yeast that's gonna work on your ferment?

Osian 14:01

Because the main goal is well, because you've got this yeast, you will know that this wine will taste like this. Yeah, because it says probably on the packet, your Chardonnay is gonna taste like this because this yeast will unlock a certain compound from that grape or thing, which will make it taste like that. So that's it.

Llinos 14:18

Did you say creaminess as well earlier when you were?

Osian 14:21

Yeah, I've got the so I'll just get grab a sheet. So I just did some research because it's just so much. So there's different names for different yeasts. So if there's one called Lalvin D47, it's just yeah, sounds a little bit so scientific, isn't it? It's just wine, yeah, whatever. And it's a favourite for barrel fermented Chardonnay and Viognier. It is prized for creating a creamy, full-bodied mouthfeel, contributing complex notes of citrus, tropical fruit and honey. And then there's another one called Lalvin QA23, uh, often chosen for Sauvignon Blanc and Riesling. Uh, so it unlocks the intense passion fruit and grapefruit aromas naturally found in the grapes.

Dylan 15:02

Yeah, that's exactly it. You know, that's so interesting, isn't it?

Llinos 15:05

And then the qualities I like as well, you know. Yeah.

Dylan 15:08

I mean, I have to say another example. We're talking about judging where I hadn't judged before. I judged in the Welsh wine awards, and I think we tasted 20 solaris, grape variety, one of these peewee varietals, new varietal here, really. Three stood out. Oh, yeah. And then the other one of the other judges said, Oh, this is the yeast. It was grapefruity, it had a more pink grapefruit. You know, three wines stood out. That was the strain of yeast that had been used by one winemaker out of 20 bottles of Solaris, and that's what made the difference. Wow. Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? Yeah, you don't really think how much yeast takes a role in the I mean we go on so much about the grape varieties, we think it's all about the grape varieties, but it's way beyond that.

Llinos 15:53

But you know what you were talking about then, about the creaminess and everything. There's such a thing as malolactic fermentation. Is that what that is? Allowing that bacteria, or are we getting no getting far too far into it? Is that I'm wondering if that's the same thing. We'll have there's another podcast. Malolactic. You're really pushing your own. But that's the creaminess. I'm wondering if that's what it is, you know, where it's no because again, we don't really know what's going on, do we?

Osian 16:18

Because we're not winemakers. No, that's but you can always read about things and try and come to a conclusion. But the end of the thing. That is it.

Llinos 16:26

I mean, I don't think anybody knows exactly, you know, I mean, yeast is a subject of great study still, and growing actually interest in it because they're beginning to realise, you know, how how important it is and that it's everywhere. They don't actually know. Yeah, yeah, it's becoming more and more popular.

Dylan 16:47

So maybe we should move over to the more wild.

Llinos 16:50

So the the wild one. So the so-called wild, yeah.

Osian 16:54

So yeah, wild yeast.

Llinos 16:56

It's making me thirsty.

Osian 16:58

And nearly we're nearly there to find out. Nearly there, okay.

Llinos 17:01

That's like telling me not yet.

Osian 17:04

So wild yeast is basically yeast that is found either in the winery or because the yeast there's yeast on the grapeskin anyway, isn't it? Or when you crush the grapes, it will just ferment naturally. Yeah. But the problem with wild yeast is you can get a stuck fermentation because the yeast hasn't fermented yet because you're just waiting for the right conditions for it to ferment. So you need some warmth as well, you know, and it needs to get going. So, you know, for for natural winemakers or people who are yeast using uh you know wild yeasts, I don't know how they do it.

Dylan 17:40

No. Well, a bit of it, I mean, I think we were talking earlier about um um how to get your fermentation started. Yeah you know, a lot of winemakers will uh produce a little batch of wine early. Um Pierre de Cuv. Pied de Cuvet. All right, like a tester. Foot of the vat, it means. Yeah, so it's like a bit of a tester. Pick some grapes, get a fermentation going in controlled conditions so they can make sure the temperature's right. So you've already started your fermentation. You can add to your main batch once you make it. I know you know, one of our great uh producers, Ojuro Emmanuel, that's exactly what he does. Yeah, cool. You know, it's indigenous yeast, and this is badge of honour, indigenous yeast, natural it sounds great, but it's dangerous. Yeah, you know, you you'd need that fermentation to start.

Llinos 18:33

Yeah, because sometimes they might just not have enough vigour, you know, it might it might not be strong enough. I know that from my sourdough sometimes, you know, that you you need that vigour in the yeah in the starter. Um it is a a very um, you know, there's there's a lot of unknowns, isn't there?

Osian 18:52

Because like a cultured yeast can start within hours. So you put a cultured yeast in the tank and it will ferment it within hours. Whereas a wild yeast, you're just gonna wait maybe days, weeks, you know, yeah, and you you can't really afford to be hanging around. And this is where oxidation comes in, and bacteria so sometimes yeah, other bacteria are gonna get into your finger.

Dylan 19:15

You don't want it there, don't definitely don't want it.

Llinos 19:17

But they like it, don't they? Because they feel that this is more of the expression of their terwa. You know, it's come from their land and their grapes that they're growing, so it's even more this expression of terroir that they're talking about, isn't it?

Osian 19:33

And what's interesting, yeah. What's interesting as well is the sort of well, I'm just reading, but my notes like the relay race. So while fermentation is often a relay of different yeast species, yeah. So one as one strain reaches like its alcohol limit and dies, another takes over. So it's sort of you've got all these different strains.

Llinos 19:53

So instead of just one, you've got to be a few.

Osian 19:54

Whereas a cultured yeast that is just that one dominant that bombards, and you know I'm the one that's gonna ferment this past complexity.

Dylan 20:03

What how often we talk about complexity? That's interesting. That's what you want, something more interesting. So if you've got different yeasts working on the ferment, you're gonna get some more complexity. So that's great.

Osian 20:15

And slow, slow fermentations actually improve the flavour and of the white people say.

Llinos 20:22

This is like bread again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is just like bread again. Um well, sourdough bread. Because yeah, that the and and the idea that you get these because what's produced is acids, gases, and is it CO2, yeah? Um, and alcohol, sorry. So yeah, that and it's like the bread again. If you want to develop that sour effect from the yeast, you keep it, you really slow down the fermentation in the fridge, leave it for up to 36 hours, and you'll get more of that sour effect, and that's the acids developing, which you may not want too much in wine, but you know, that's something you have to control there, isn't it? That's very interesting.

Osian 21:06

But do you know, like producers that we went to see in France, uh Domain Huet, they've been biodynamic since the 70s or something, maybe more. And they use wild yeasts and indigenous, and I just I just wonder I'd I'd love to see you know how they actually maintain it and keep the quality because there's no funkiness in that wine. No, no, absolutely not. We had no equipment. It's so clean and pure.

Dylan 21:33

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, how do how do you control something like that? Because they're at the dangers, you know, the dangers of oxidization, the dangers of other bacteria, you know, of just not being strong enough. Etienne, say from St. Cell's about the natural progression of wine without wine, the natural progression of natural wine is vinegar.

Llinos 21:55

And that that is what will happen with the wrong yeast, isn't it?

Dylan 21:58

If your fermentation doesn't get going, it Strong enough, you've got a lot of danger.

Llinos 22:02

And how do you know their tolerance? But I didn't know that baton thing, like passing on from one yeast to the other, because some yeasts are not as tolerant to alcohol as others. No, you know, so that they're great for making beer because you want to lower alcohol. But yeah, that I didn't know that. So that that answer is.

Dylan 22:20

So when you've got a wine that goes up to God knows 15, 16, 16. Yeah, there's not many yeasts that that tolerate that. Um but you know, things like uh you see in Amaroni and wine like that. So they've obviously got a yeast, you know, commonly is 16 because it can be 16%. So they yeast that can survive to that level.

Llinos 22:40

Yeah, they don't do natural wine well, yeast natural yeast wines don't tend to be lower in alcohol, then maybe, are they? Or not? Who knows?

Osian 22:50

Not necessarily. No, natural wines tend to be lower in alcohol because they tend to pick the grapes earlier anyway, I think to keep the acidity.

Dylan 22:59

But okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Hmm.

Dylan 23:02

And once we've done with the yeast, no, we haven't done with it, but it's done with its work for the fermentation, it still has properties we want in our world. Even though it's dead. Yeah, dead. You're dead to me, yeast. So uh I mean, famously, most famously perhaps for sparkling wine, uh cremant, traditional method, champagne. Uh the flavours, aromas are a lot about the dead yeast cells in the bottle.

Osian 23:31

So you've got two halves of new, you got the yeast that's alive, and you want it to ferment, and then actually, when it's dead, you're still gonna use it because it's still gonna impart some flavour and texture and stuff into the wine, so it's quite interesting. Yeah, but I think I think I might be wrong, but you're not allowed to use wild yeasts in champagne. I think I might be wrong. I think it's string rules, I don't think you're allowed.

Llinos 23:54

Yeah, that's interesting.

Dylan 23:55

Because they want consistency and they want all that consistency, yeah. But it what what they're really working on is the autolysis at the end of the fermentation, the second fermentation, those lees in the bottom of the bottle. And the leaves are the dead yeast cells and the yeast cells that are then going to change the character of the wine, um, change the aromas to the flower.

Llinos 24:17

Our champagne producer leaves her champagne on the lees for nine years. Yeah, seven, eight years, seven, eight, nine.

Osian 24:23

Ten years for whatever is minimum is twelve months, isn't it? Yeah. Champagne.

Dylan 24:29

Yeah, or eighteen, fifteen, something like that. You could you know, you can knock it out quickly, or if you want that extra complexity, you're gonna leave the leaves there.

Llinos 24:38

And like a bottle of uh of muscade or something like that. Um if you see surly on it, that means it's had time on the lees, unlike an ordinary one, which gives it more texture and flavour, doesn't it?

Dylan 24:51

Yeah, sometimes it's a muscade, perhaps an example of a fairly neutral grape variety bourgoyne, uh melon de bourgoyne, and that's helping to give you more complexity. Reduce the acidity maybe a bit because it's so acidic. Yeah. And it it's funny, you can see pictures online, you can see everything online now of you know when they're stirring the leaves up, so it was left on the leaves for 12 months or something.

Llinos 25:15

It's that batonage before that.

Dylan 25:17

Yeah, so they're stirring up. It's like uh trying to think of an example, you know. Um sh uh what what has a sediment, but you can just see it sort of it's like a big cloud, isn't it? Yeah, stirring it up even in the barrel, making it all cloudy again, and then it'll settle out, and then we're gonna stir it up again, yeah, and then we're gonna get some extra complexity, some extra depth, some different aromas and flavours.

Llinos 25:41

So you will sometimes see, won't you, um the the sort of lees or whatever it is in the bottom of some natural wines, you know, a lot of sediment in the bottom. So they leave it. We've had the occasional bottle like that, yeah. Deliberately left that.

Osian 25:56

You know, a lot of them are cloudy because they just yeah, they leave it.

Llinos 25:59

They leave it, yeah.

Dylan 26:00

Yeah, I mean any bit of filtration, natural wine makers sort of feel uh you're filtering out some of the the glory of the wine, some of the flavour aroma by overcleansing it, if you like.

Osian 26:13

But again, I feel like sometimes when it is really cloudy, sometimes it does it is quite overpowering.

Dylan 26:19

Yeah, you know, I think so. And I'm a little bit off-putting. We're not used to wine that's cloudy, you know. We like our wine to be uh crystal clear. Yeah um oh.

Llinos 26:28

Well, you know, I was promised a while ago, wasn't I? And that's I don't think you I was sort of expecting a nod.

Dylan 26:36

Right, so we're we're we're we're gonna try we're gonna try wine.

Llinos 26:42

This is my way of pushing everybody along.

Dylan 26:44

Yeah. Uh natural yeast. It's from Italy. We visited these people. We visited them last year. It's a Garvey. So I think most people are familiar with um uh Gavi Degavi. This isn't Gavi Degavi, this is Gavi di Tessorossa or something like that. Um, and they make um, you know, it's like so many winemakers. Essentially, one great variety, they do have a couple of great varieties I've read, but um cortesi is the great variety, that's what they have, uh but they make different cuves, so they make a more traditional straight Garvey. This one is they've got a pair of um um natural, more natural. So they've allowed natural yeast to take over for the fermentation, they'd left the lees there to stir up as well, and they're trying to get a bit of extra um complexity, a little bit of a change from their straight Garvey, and it's it's got that, it's got a little bit of hint of yeastiness on the lines.

Osian 27:48

I feel like nice creaminess and uh what they've done as well is when we talked about wild yeast, is they've you've they've used that sort of sourdough starter thing of Pierre de Cuve.

Dylan 27:59

So they've collected grapes beforehand, I think, and then allowed that to ferment and then added that to you're sort of uh but sometimes when you're making ordinary bread, you know, you get your yeast, you you your bit of warm water, get it to fit start fizzing up a bit, and then you make you use it. And that's essentially what you're doing, you're getting the yeast going, and then you'll add it to the rest of the coconut. And they fermented it in barrels, yeah.

Osian 28:24

So that's another thing as well. But I don't really know what I mean.

Dylan 28:27

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's you know, you you in in fact they have a pair of these wines. Uh one is called El Bandito, who was a bandit, and the other one is the Il Campione, uh, who was a champion cyclist, but they were friends from the village or whatever. But one is made in stainless steel, but the same technique, yeah, and the other in uh barrels and tonne barrels, which are tonne is big barrels, if you like. Um but again, using the leaves to get some more complexity, longer time. Yeah, the fermentation in fermentation in oak is is a bit in a way is different to you know, saying, well, it's been aged in oak. And you get different aromas, different interaction with the oak, um and uh more integrated it tends to be rather than just trying to give some flavour of oak.

Osian 29:22

And if we you know, if we were to compare this to like a Garvey from Tesco, straight Garvey, cultured yeast, I would assume, stainless steel, aged, no leees aging maybe. So that is the main difference we're trying to sort of point out. It's sort of this is wild yeast fermented in barrel, leees stirring, and like yeast, just like yeast is the the main point of this way, you know.

Dylan 29:51

Yeah, I mean it unluckily we're not opening the uh more standard uh gar you know, agarie from whichever supermarket.

Llinos 29:59

I could have had two bottles then, couldn't I?

Dylan 30:01

You know, we uh the Garvey is very it's quite citrus, it's clean, it's acidic, but doesn't have a lot of complexity on it on every this has got some different stuff going on. That's what makes this interesting, yeah, makes it a bit more expensive, um but it's really good. Yeah, and it's been aged on the leaves for ten months after fermentation, so yeah, yeah. So um the use of those leaves, the dead yeast cells, to impart some extra aromas, complexity, flavours, uh, and they've done a great job. Yeah.

Llinos 30:31

I mean, we're not necessarily saying one's better than the other, are we? We're just saying it's a different process. Whether you have yeast that you inoculate, you have a choice then of different yeasts, don't you? Or you've got this one, which is a bit riskier, and I think you wouldn't you have to be absolutely immaculate in your winery when you're doing the wild yeast.

Dylan 30:51

You're hoping you you yeah, you're gonna be more careful, shall we say? I mean, if you've got a big stainless tank of New Zealand Sauvignon grapes, and you're gonna add your your um uh yeast straight away at a certain temperature and it's all sealed, and you know, that's gonna be no ri low risk of any spoilage or anything else happening. Whereas some of this, something like this, you've got you know, there's some risks here, and you could get some unwanted bacteria in there, but they've done a great job. So, yeah, you need to keep clean and and you know immaculate. I mean, it we're not talking here about the sort of sulfur levels, and that's a another step again where you need to be so so careful if you're not going to use sulfur.

Llinos 31:33

Now, some yeasts are more tolerant of sulfur, apparently, as well. So, you know, that's uh I'm not sure if that's the cultured, the cultured yeast, maybe, you know, but it's only with a tasting note.

Osian 31:45

So I I'm on their website right now.

Llinos 31:47

Yeah.

Osian 31:47

And the take tasting note is in your standard sort of garlic tasting note. So this is um so fresh and intense with a non-invasive woody note, and hints of green tea, ginger, jasmine, in the mouth, it is long, savoury, and tasty.

Llinos 32:04

Yeah, that's savory, without a doubt, yeah. So um and those little spice elements that they've mentioned.

Osian 32:13

But it's not savoury as in like really savory. It's it's I mean, it's almost like apple pie sort of. I don't know, there's something.

Dylan 32:24

I mean, it is it's you know, there's extremes in everything, isn't there? And some of the the more natural, more wild yeast, let's hang around, wait for it to go, you know, they can get a bit too funky. But this is clean, but those extra flavours aromas. So La Zerba from uh Tassorolo have done a great job here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um good, yeah. We really should have compared it with their more uh commercial um couve, if you like. But um, yeah, this is great.

Llinos 32:52

You can run down and get a bottle in a minute.

Dylan 32:54

Yeah, yeah, we'll compare. But um, you know, and they will be using low sulfur, they're organic, you know, they're doing the best job. Um, and they've done a really good job there. Um and yeah, I think you know, you there's dangers, but you're aiming for some extra complexity, uh, some more interest in your wine with some wild yeast. I mean, it we we had a tossed a coin which wine we'd try tonight, uh, and we were going to go for the um uh New Zealand grey greywacky. Um Kevin Jard, grey producer, who produces a sort of more standard New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. Very good, but then he has a world a wild ferment as well, which has more complexity. That's really interesting. A little bit funky on the nose.

Osian 33:40

It's marketed on the label, isn't it? It's called the wild. And it's wild fermented. But I I read about their normal Sauvignon, they do use a tiny bit of wild fermented as well. Trying to get complexity in terms of the majority being cultured, yeah. But it's just a hint of wildness.

Llinos 34:05

It's such an interesting topic. I mean, I don't you know, it's hugely complex, but I think that that is, you know, when you said, you know, earlier you were boiling it down to we need it to make it, we need it to produce the alcohol, and then also second fermentation of champagne, you know, they inoculate a bit more in to get the bubbles, yeah.

Dylan 34:28

Yeah, you've got to write you to the right.

Llinos 34:30

And then also we need uh if we want more texture by the autolysis, by autolysis is what we say, leaving it on the lees, and that can be a very long process. Um and it just you know, again, the comp it's like when we had Woody in the last podcast, you know, you begin to realize that away from the mass-produced wine, there's a lot of complexity and a lot of science going on behind the producing of this these wines, isn't there?

Dylan 34:59

Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely.

Llinos 35:00

And cheers to them for doing it.

Dylan 35:02

Yeah, so uh yeah, yakida. Good job, boys.

Llinos 35:05

Yeah, and I shall carry on learning with my sourdough, which is equally, equally long process.

Dylan 35:13

The trouble with that is that it's it's it's deep then, there's no end to it. It keeps growing and it gets split, and we're making bread, and now you're making biscuits, and I don't know what to do with it.

Llinos 35:25

And so um complaining, he's saying, Don't stop making all this bread. We're gonna be lovely bread. I know, I know. Yeah, exactly. I mean, fancy complaining about that.

Dylan 35:37

No, no, it's fantastic, and uh yeah.

Llinos 35:39

He's gotta say that, hasn't he?

Dylan 35:41

But I do, but I do know it's fantastic. And um I've made a loaf for tonight. Oh, nice.

Llinos 35:49

Yeah, I know. What a treat. What a treating today.

Osian 35:52

There we go. So that's yeast for you, everybody.

Llinos 35:56

Let us know what you think of that, you know. Yeah, and and a little bit of um, yeah, you know, we're learning ourselves. And if anybody's got anything to contribute, it'd be really nice to hear what you think and anything anything that surprised you. Cool. So doch Marianne and Randall. Thank you very much.

Osian 36:17

Catch you in the next one.